Richard Carrier vs Nadir Ahmed - Cosmology In The Quran - 2003
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2003 - Infidel Guy Show
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Poor Nadir is left holding a pig in a poke. All the points he makes comply exactly with the problems Richard described at the beginning of the clip, and he ends up like King Cnut, trying to hold back the tide.
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Wow a rational Muslim? He must have gone home and beaten his wife
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Nadir comes over a nice chap but keeps saying "oh, ok" and "just want to know were you are coming from". He accepts also he doesnt what his god means which bizarre particularly thousands of years on. Carrier game, set and match!
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I have read the flood in the koran. It just not najes sense it is the biblical version but written in typical islamic style ie the god killed all the infidels all the non believers this non beluever and infidel is typical .
my question is who is a non believer as mohammed didnt come until 600 ad.
surely all oeople at this time are non believers and infidels -
Carrier's essay (2001): google
"Cosmology and the Koran: A Response to Muslim Fundamentalists" -
A day with god is like 50,000 years:? I've met some boring people but never that boring.
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jail photo Nadir ahmed hahaha
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Carrier: "ambiguous, imprecise, and inherently non-scientific...that is they include no mathematics, no precision of definition or detail...these are fundamental requirements of any text claiming to be scientific."The debate is pretty much over only 4 minutes in. This is a very fair characterisation of the "scientific" verses. This does not refute Islam in total, but it does refute the claims that the Koran contains scientific miracles.
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I think in some cases it does not even matter in religion whether it has a book or not. Seems that there will be always enough idiots in all eras which will fit their book to the latest scientific discoveries and claiming that they knew it because it was written in that book. And so instead of coming up with those new discoveries since 7th century they have to wait 1400 until science discovers them. Hmmm I think that I could not believe such story. I would feel a bit sorry for a person who can possibly believe that.
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I feel like both of the debaters are quite humble as far as admitting the limitations of knowledge on specific subjects.
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nadir ahmed seems he could be very very smart intelligent enough to cure diseases. or generate a perpetual hand held devise, he isn't cause he is stuck in a time without cameras. cameras and scopes can show us the world and the past. but nardir wants to avoid science, and waist time on falsehoods that his parents and adults in the country that lied to him. come on really who gives a fuck about the past that much. the future should have more importance to ones mind. religion is just killing minds, our future, all species, and earth too! NO god EVER
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Dance, Ahmed, dance...
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Yes The Koran is practically an encyclopedia of science. Really?
why is this even a debate? -
Subjectively speaking - our existence has either been influenced by intelligence or not. There is currently no publicly-known, objectively-verifiable, scientifically-reproducible, peer-reviewed evidence sufficiently leading to proof that either is the objective truth. It is a choice to believe one or the other is the truth. Whichever you choose - you are using the concept of faith. Faith is belief without proof. Objectively speaking - only one is the truth and our subjectively formulated opinions or lack thereof have no affect on that objective truth. Such is the nature, beauty, and glory of The Truth - He is perfect and unbreakable.
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this is not debate. Debate is engagement in communication with both sides willing to learn something from the other Verbal sparring is a waste of time. Cosmology is something that is known to the didactic reasoned as Einstein is, It doesn't take much to put the whole picture together, but that is blocked by the ego, in greed, self absorbed, magical thinking and massive complexes protecting and covering over Intelligence... this is analysis that gets nowhere. win/lose ALWAYS loses...we have two losers here .
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At the beginning of this debate Nadir tells us that Islam is unique in that it invites questioning, critique and criticism. What a hilarious claim! Hey Nadir, how do you explain these verses? (Quran 5:101-102) Believers, ask not questions about things which if made plain to you may cause you trouble when the Quran is revealed. Some people before you asked questions, and on that account lost their faith.
Maududi, in his commentary, The Meaning of the Quran, states: The Prophet forbade people to ask questions or to pry into such things.
The Hadith states I heard the Prophet say, Allah has hated you for asking too many questions. : Bukhari:V2B24N555
Oh yes Nadir, Islam really invites criticism! So much so that if you criticize Islam in most Islamic countries you are jailed or executed. Muslims kill their critics; just ask Theo van Gogh.
Nadir tells us that Islam doesnt teach a global flood story as in the Bible. He says this because he knows that the story has been debunked by science and is almost universally recognized as a myth. But Islam does teach this same nonsense. In the Islamic scriptures of Tabari we are told that Jesus resurrected Noahs son Ham and asked him to describe Noahs ark. Ham answers It was 1,200 cubits long and 600 cubits wide. So not only does Islam subscribe to the same ridiculous myth it increases the Ark size to nearly 4,000 feet!
Clearly the Islamic scriptures are fiction. -
Nadir seems like a real nice guy - but not ready for this conversation. It's not an educated disagreement with Carriers scholarly work - leave vague passages alone? If we apply that standard for all religious dogma that seeks to establish, rules, laws and morality for all of humanity - we'll be secularists in no time!
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The most boring debate EVER.
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Although I don't consider Buddhism a religion. I consider it a philosophy. It does say in the Dhammapada to not believe what is in the book, but to question everything and test what you are taught regardless of source. It also says not to just take wisdom from Buddhism, but to take wisdom that you can test as being true from any source you can get it from i.e. if you find something in the bible that can be tested as true and positive for society then use it.
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