100. Episode 100 - No Free Will: The New Cosmology
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Special thanks to Simon Matthews for having designed this totally awesome opening sequence for this and future episodes! Recorded 11.09.12 Hosts: George Ortega and Enel Show site: http://causalconsciousness.com/ iTunes podcast: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/exploring-illusion-free-will/id528476841 From academia to Main Street: http://exogenousagency.wordpress.com/2013/01/10/history-of-how-refuting-free-will-went-from-academia-to-the-public-spotlight/ Opening sequence by Simon Matthews - VFX NOW! http://www.youtube.com/user/1simonmatthews
Comments
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Particles move in an uncertain way so we do have some free will. Most free will and no one can determine your future from your past and the present can always change.
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I don't blame people for believing in free will, or for living incorrectly. All morality must be attributable to whatever makes us do what we do, whether or not we want to call it causality or God or the universe.
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You say that people are living incorrectly, but if there is no free will, they don´t have any choice in living that way... if there is no choice words like wrong, incorrect etc seems to me empty concepts...and all that God talk is pure speculation
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Thank you!!!
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This is cool and so true - no free will - and it's not boring! It's awesome! Simply awesome. Thanks!
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Consciousness is, by definition, awareness. Since it it neither a data storage nor a decision making mechanism, and since the data, and therefore the processing, of decisions must occur in the unconscious (that by definition one is not conscious of) our decisions are not consciously, or freely, willed. Why do you say consciousness defies logic?
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I'll believe you when they fully explain consciousness and make a machine that is conscious, not some zombie AI robot. And also when they can logically explain those things that currently defy logic, for this universe exists within that realm or is connected to it. There are things in existence that they cannot explain with logic and the current laws of physics. I'd say life and consciousness are very big candidates for this.
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99% isn't a big leap of faith, if you view consciousness as I do: - You believe in strong emergence, and I don't, I think consciousness is weak emergence, like every other emergence out there. - Therefor, first cause ≠ consciousness, in terms of their origins. - As weak emergence, consciousness is bound to Causality. I understand your arguments and conclusions, I'm just not inclined to agree with your premises.
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Consciousness is the key. It's nothing to do with little things hurtling through space obeying the laws of physics. These things can't explain consciousness. Consciousness defies logic in the same way as the first cause does. If we want to get to the bottom of the free will debate then consciousness is the key to it all.
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I just realized that when I was at 99% I had taken a leap of faith concerning consciousness. That's a big leap of faith, since free will is bound to consciousness. If one was to remove that leap of faith they would find themselves with me at 50/50 . At least until they find out more about consciousness. I feel they are nowhere near explaining its existence yet, not near enough to be any more than 50%.
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Our current understanding of the universe does not begin to explain consciousness. Oh there are a few scientists that try to make out that it has been explained, such as Dennett himself, but I think it's far from explained. Consciousness defies logic in the same way as the first cause does, yet it exists now, not just before the Big Bang. Free will and consciousness are one. Until consciousness is explained then we might have free will. It's 50/50 at the moment. I've just come down from 99%.
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If the Big Bang was really the beginning, I wouldn't say that it would defy logic - I instead think that logic was created at that moment, and there was nothing at a more fundamental level that caused it. So I can't really relate it to free will. But even if you accept that... it can still be argued that our current understanding of Logic is incomplete, and that free will can exist in that lack of knowledge. When someone elaborates concretely on that subject, I might change my 99% certainties.
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Yes it can be used to justify all sorts of things, but free will in particular is related to consciousness, which could be related to whatever exists on a fundamental level in the universe, which would relate it to that mystery that defies logic - the beginning of the universe and the first cause. So you see, in this case it's far more relevant than ghosts and fairies. Hope you can see that. Actually, now I think about it, to be safe I couldn't put more than 50% on there being no free will.
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I'm not disagreeing with you, free will may exist due to unknown variables, like you said. But everything points to the non-existence of free will, so it's going to be needed something more concrete than "it's something that defies logic". Because saying things like that can be used to justify the existence of everything that may exist, but probably doesn't, like gods, ghosts, karma, whatever. Am I wrong thinking like this?
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Don't forget, the vast majority believe in free will. The vast majority don't believe in fairies. That's the difference. Also, if we do have free will then it's probably linked to whatever exists on a fundamental level in the universe, making it far more relevant to my original statement than fairies. Have a think about it instead of reacting.
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At the end of the day (well, to be more precise, at the beginning of time) we don't know what caused the first cause, and until we can answer this mystery there are unknown variables, which is why you cannot say for certain that free will is impossible. I'm actually 99.9% on the side of no free will myself, but there is an honesty in myself that has to admit that until we have all the answers there is a possibility that we do have free will.
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With all due respect, your rebuttal is weak. You can't compare what I said to fairies. The fact exists that there are mysteries in this universe that defy logic, and this could be one of them. Comparing it to fairies is BS. Absolute BS.
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In that case, I say that fairies also exist, but for reasons that defy logic. This is a weak argument, and the case for the non-existence of free will is too robust, to be shaken by an argument like that.
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Good show guys! I have statement that will stump you! You know when you say the beginning of the universe defies all logic? Well, it's possible that we DO actually have free will but for reasons that, just like the beginning of the universe, defy logic. Whilst mysteries that defy logic exist, and we know they do because you just talked about them, then you simply can't rule out this possibility! Sorry guys, there's no refuting this "POSSIBILITY"! Great show though! :-)
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Love the new intro! You two are quite funny in this episode.
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